Training Run Times

[Happyhonkaman]

i nearly deleted this answer a few times, i dont really think i should be too proscriptive but i cant think of another useful way to answer the question. but there is more than one way to skin a cat. this is far from the only answer

it depends on how you run them.

You're probably at the point where you need to be running with a bit more intent. When i was training for tri's i found that swimming or biking the next day after a hard session manageable on the body but i was younger then.

Plodding 10k easy from here won't get you the improvement you're looking for. Its never the distance that's the issue its the speed. The general fitness you'll gain from more volume overall might but you need to start some controlled quicker running.

The aim is to go comfortably hard.

Never to overdo it and burn the candle at both ends.

If the 5k PR + 5k works, grand but i reckon its a big injury risk if you do it weekly.

Presumably you run it hard and you accumulate lactic, then keep going after a bit chances are you'll break down quickly enough and your legs will be trashed for Sunday.

Are you familar with Jack Daniels (the coach not the whiskey), he proscribed paces based on assumed VO2 max from distance races. Called Vdot. They are not a holy grail but a decent starting point for most runners.

V.O2 Running Calculator

An easy-to-use training platform for athletes and coaches, including the science and formulas of legendary coach Dr. Jack Daniels.

vdoto2.com

Next week or the week after take your park run seriously.

Get a good 20 min warm up. Do a few strides beforehand, no pints the night before and properly race your Park Run this will get you a recent 5k time for current fitness.

Plug this into your calculator (by all means run another 5 but really you should be too bait to want to do any more than shuffle a bit) and you'll get a VDOT.

This will give you training paces and race projections. The one you need most is your threshold pace. i.e. the pace you can run where your body is generating latic and clearing it without it going exponential.

Your 1:51:10 ish marathon is about a VDOT of 40. this projects to a 50min ish 10k so reasonably good for you (but needs to be tested in the park run, do not use these paces here they are a guide only).

Training paces give Marathon Pace of 5:28 per km. Threshold pace of 5:07 mins per km. I think Daniels is a bit ambitious for his T pace so say 5:10 or so.

I would use these as the basis for your running and let the swim/bike be your easy session.

so your Tues 10k, can be
20min E warm up, 10 min T, 3 mins Rest x2, 20 min Cooldown. You'd be lookng to build this up to about 40mins over time split basically any way you want between 4 and 20 mins with decent recovery.

I like 8-10 4 min reps for this, or 5x8mins etc with 1min recovery for both.

Sat Session would be a touch slower and a bit longer between T and M pace maybe 5:15 or 5:20 or so. Err on the side of caution

20 min E warm up, 20 min steady, 5 mins E, 10 mins steady, 20 mins Easy. Build up to about an hour of work. over time by adding 5 mins either side of the rest. This might end up being your long run and you reover on the bike on a sunday. if its part of park run grand as long as you have pace disipline.

The idea will always be that you feel you are going too slow by rep 1 and are feeling it by the last min of the last rep but could keep going. you are looking to achieve a state not a pace so if you need to run your 20min sets 10 secs slower than your 1k reps thats okay but always be cautious. Some days you'll feel like shit and go slower. thats okay.

Some days you'll feel great, resist the urge to push it. Anyone can do it once. the aim is to get on the bike the next day and the pool the day.after and another session the next day or whatever.

Repeat your park run time trial every 8 weeks or so and update your paces.

I hope this helps and is clear and not nonsense

Thanks a lot El G, theres mountain of information there - really appreciate it

I need to read through it a few times and figure out how it would work.. theres a load of terminology there I am completely unfamiliar with as I'm a turn up and do it type rather than getting deep into reading or theory stuff.

I was laughing at your point about no drinking the night before the Park Run to set the line in the sand.. I doubt I have ever run it without a good gulp of wine the night before as it unfortunately follows the end of the week at work and me chilling out!

Right now I'm running 10kms around the 50-51 minute mark, thats simply taking off with no plan in mind and just looking to run at what i would consider a steady pace which tends to be 5:06 more often than not

I hear what you're saying about the park run - the one last week the first 5km was average 4:35-4:40/km, the next 5km was 4:40-4:55/km so I could see how that could cause issue now that I read what you are saying about lactic build up. I could definitely feel it in my legs on Sunday on the cycle, but I went over Howth, turned, and then went back over it the opposite direction so didn't make it easy on myself

 

[Carmona]

no contest. the Lichenstein Canova or some asshole with a sore leg who can't run.

Carmona is the man

I am in me bollix. You're the details man here. I read (and trained to) Jack D once. Neither went too well!

 

[BlackpoolTerrier]

Canova has one of the best marathon PB prediction methods - LT mile speed + 4%. In his view, no matter what you do, that's as good a time as you'll ever get - and you need a full, injury-free training program and a solid run of form through racing day to make it.

In my case he was pretty much bang on - I beat the Canova number by a small bit, but that's all.

 

[Carmona]

Canova has one of the best marathon PB prediction methods - LT mile speed + 4%. In his view, no matter what you do, that's as good a time as you'll ever get - and you need a full, injury-free training program and a solid run of form through racing day to make it.

In my case he was pretty much bang on - I beat the Canova number by a small bit, but that's all.

Terrier - welcome back, btw - a tiny bit more flesh on that there, if you don't mind. What % of effort are you running the mile at? Then you take that time, add 4% to it and that equals your marathon mile pace, or what?

Let's see if I'm understanding this. Runner X does his LT mile in 6.40 (400 seconds) so we add 16 secs on to that to give him a 6.56 M pace per mile. Is that right? I'd still need to know what exactly LT means...... (I know what it means technically, but there are lots of interpretations)

 

[Carmona]

Found this little app on Reddit just now.

Workout Pace Percentage Calculator - from Running Writings

apps.runningwritings.com

 

[El Guapo]

I am in me bollix. You're the details man here. I read (and trained to) Jack D once. Neither went too well!

i actually found the Daniels programmes an awful grind. i don't think I've ever gotten past about 12 weeks of them.

The running formula is great but only as a jumping off point..

I do think the VDOT tables are useful to answer the what paces should i run at question.

No they are not 100% accurate, yes there are probably better methods. Direct Lactate measuent is king but totally impractical, expensive and largely unnecesssry, Max Aerobic speed, Critical speed etc are all variations on a theme but VDOT is quick and dirty, accessible and good enough for purpose.

All the various terms are a ball ache alright.

 

[BlackpoolTerrier]

Terrier - welcome back, btw - a tiny bit more flesh on that there, if you don't mind. What % of effort are you running the mile at? Then you take that time, add 4% to it and that equals your marathon mile pace, or what?

Let's see if I'm understanding this. Runner X does his LT mile in 6.40 (400 seconds) so we add 16 secs on to that to give him a 6.56 M pace per mile. Is that right? I'd still need to know what exactly LT means...... (I know what it means technically, but there are lots of interpretations)

LT is what you can maintain for an hour or so of running. So, if your 10-mile time is around 60-65 minutes, then a good way to measure LT is to use your 10-mile race pace. At peak, this was around 6:18 for me - 378 seconds per mile.

Four percent of that is approx 15 seconds - add that to the above and you get 393 seconds, or 6:33 per mile - equating to a marathon target of 2:51:36. Canova would say that given that your LT is 378 , the best you'll do is 2:51:36. His theory allegedly worked perfectly for his elite Kenyans too - so he often used it to select athletes for his programs.

At PB, I managed to beat it by a mere 8 seconds, a rounding error, so naturally I think his formula is bang on . In fairness, it was way more accurate than the MacMillan calculator, which said I'd never break 3.

As I said, you'll only hit your Canova number if you get through a full program, injury-free and then deliver a good performance on race day.

 

[El Guapo]

Just to put a bow on the terminology stuff. before i never mention it again cos its fawkin boring

BPT is right. LT is best approximated by 60min race pace. I say approximate because this is about what it is not exactly what it is.

Everyone has a lactate curve, everyone's curve is different based on a mix how trained they are and genetics.

They look like this typically

You test it by running at a set pace say 6mins/km 5mins take a blood sample, the go to 5:30/km 5 mins take another and so on.

At the start lactate will be tiny 0 or 0.5 or something. and it'll rise to about 1.5mmol/l or 2 very slowly. This rise is LT1, it marks the boundary of Easy running and its what your looking for with "the talk test etc" .

Next the rise will be a bit steeper but not much up to about 4mmol/l. in a straightish line. This is LT2.

This is the point we mean, when we say LT running, tempo, threshold, steady state.
With some nuance they are all more or less the same thing and are here.

Your body can clear the lactate as quick as it is produces it and if you nail the pace in some utopian event you will sustain this at a level lactate for 60 mins almost exactly.

After that all bets are off. above LT2, the numbers go exponential, 14, 25 32 and up and up.

This is hard, Gawk in the bushes, shit your kecks, oxygen mask kind of stuff. I'm not saying you never go in here..far from it, its imperative you do, but when you do the vol goes down, the rest goes up and you get a day or two off to recover.

There is no unified approach to training. I'm a firm believer its more art than science. Just because there is so much more to it then the numbers. If it was simply a matter of lactate numbers we'd all be world champs.

But there is a firm consensus now that pushing LT1 and LT2 up from below is way more beneficial then pulling them up from above. So thats why every %MaxHR, %VO2, Ventilitary Rate, Critical Speed, %5k pace, %MAS, RPE are all trying to do the same thing. Approximate these points without a lactate meter.

I also think that for our purposes the terms Easy, Steady and Hard do almost as good a job as all the rest of them.

Worth mentioning that the current Fad you'll see the Gym bros on youtube is Zone 2 training. This refers to the bit right before LT1 where lactate is just starting to rise in a 5 zone system.

Honestly its better to just go out and enjoy yourself