Training Run Times

[jimmym]

Maybe your body is telling you "listen to Carmona and El Guapo". I've done about 17 of these marathon things and I'm not sure I'll do another. Last one was December '22. The body has had issues since (and before) that means I'm sticking to shorter stuff for a bit now. After the last 42.2k I have done a few 21.1s but this year I'm even considering that distance! Dunno, just not loving the time on feet. Maybe next year, we'll see.

Jimmy, you do seem to jump fairly quickly from 11 milers to 16 milers in training. As for races, I've seen very few HM reports. A fella hoping to do marathons would normally do a few Halfs for fun... as part of build-up or whatever. I remember advising you to take a step back and forget the marathon for a year or more. If you get a few halfs under your belt and get your shorter distance times down, you'll gain confidence and feel better about the whole thing. Don't obssess about the M distance either. If you end up never doing one, so be it. Take care, stay as healthy as possible, get a few runs a week in when you can, and let the rest look after itself. In 2029 you might be on here talking about smashing the marathon pb from 2027!

Hi Carmona, Indeed you did advise me to maybe park the marathon for a year or two, Like most runners i am very pig headed, Got back running
after injury last August and was rusty as hell but bit by bit was building, Picked up a couple of chest infections november and december which
set my progress back, From january on i started to rebuild but deep down i knew i was miles off where i was a year previously,
I started to tell my self i could do the marathon albeit very slowly , The only race i have done in the last year was the ballintotis 4 mile,
Any halfs i have done have been on my sunday training runs, Spoke to a club mate last night who picked up a nasty heel injury in november,
His physio told him as we get older naturally there is only so much the body can do take and thus we pick up injuries, He is back running
and a few weeks ago 5 miles was a challenge but is now up to 9 miles, He says right now its purely a case of a slow rebuild and getting out with the company of the gang, I am at the stage now of blaming myself and asking what did i do wrong, i.e Lack of stretching etc?
But in reality i probably did nothing wrong and its just mother nature telling me to take my time and see where i am as soon as this heals,

 

[El Guapo]

He says right now its purely a case of a slow rebuild and getting out with the company of the gang, I am at the stage now of blaming myself and asking what did i do wrong, i.e Lack of stretching etc?
But in reality i probably did nothing wrong and its just mother nature telling me to take my time and see where i am as soon as this heals,

feel free to tell me to jump. often unsolicited advice is a pain in the hole but a stress fracture like yours has nothing to do with stretching etc.

Its not a case of blame either but you would be mad not to learn from your issues since the hammer injury in 23. Everyone, including me, underestimates the biomechanical load the pounding takes on the body.

The mistake i think you made was chasing milage without enough of a base to handle it.

so take a few weeks of nothing, whatever the physio says then build away when you can.

i'd only start a long run after about 2 months of build back into running. Run/walk etc. no more than 60 mins for 2 or 3 months

i would start the long run at no more than 70mins (about 8 miles for you) or even 60 mins.

I'd cap increments at 5 mins , (about a half mile)

Deload every 4th week.
Week 1, 70mins,
Week 2, 75mins
Week 3, 80mins
Week 4, 75 mins
Week 5 80 mins
Week 6 85 mins
Week 7 90 mins
Week 8 85 mins etc

i would limit the long run to that 90min mark, after 90 mins fuelling becomes important and recovery a bit harder

Max 1hr 45 until next Spring or Summer, when you hit 90 mins LR, bring your. Midweek 5 milers up to the 60 min mark, one at a time again in 5 min increments. then up to 70mins max All very slow and gradual. There us a non linear improvement around that 60min mark and again at 90mins but consider those red zones given your history

Then start bringing in tempo or steady state running into the midweeks and eventually the weekend.

Another thing you could try is long run every other week. i know Masters women get a lot of success from this. its anthethical to typical training but they can't recover on a 7 day cycle so do hills and short tempos the other week. if you have bad sleep or life shit on this should help.

Basically do what your doing, in the limits you have around family, but do it way way more gradually.

extend again next spring for a half or a 10 miler or whatever but don't ramp anyhing too quickly. remember to take a week off for your hols and christmas or whatever.

Then see where you are

 

[jimmym]

feel free to tell me to jump. often unsolicited advice is a pain in the hole but a stress fracture like yours has nothing to do with stretching etc.

Its not a case of blame either but you would be mad not to learn from your issues since the hammer injury in 23. Everyone, including me, underestimates the biomechanical load the pounding takes on the body.

The mistake i think you made was chasing milage without enough of a base to handle it.

so take a few weeks of nothing, whatever the physio says then build away when you can.

i'd only start a long run after about 2 months of build back into running. Run/walk etc. no more than 60 mins for 2 or 3 months

i would start the long run at no more than 70mins (about 8 miles for you) or even 60 mins.

I'd cap increments at 5 mins , (about a half mile)

Deload every 4th week.
Week 1, 70mins,
Week 2, 75mins
Week 3, 80mins
Week 4, 75 mins
Week 5 80 mins
Week 6 85 mins
Week 7 90 mins
Week 8 85 mins etc

i would limit the long run to that 90min mark, after 90 mins fuelling becomes important and recovery a bit harder

Max 1hr 45 until next Spring or Summer, when you hit 90 mins LR, bring your. Midweek 5 milers up to the 60 min mark, one at a time again in 5 min increments. then up to 70mins max All very slow and gradual. There us a non linear improvement around that 60min mark and again at 90mins but consider those red zones given your history

Then start bringing in tempo or steady state running into the midweeks and eventually the weekend.

Another thing you could try is long run every other week. i know Masters women get a lot of success from this. its anthethical to typical training but they can't recover on a 7 day cycle so do hills and short tempos the other week. if you have bad sleep or life shit on this should help.

Basically do what your doing, in the limits you have around family, but do it way way more gradually.

extend again next spring for a half or a 10 miler or whatever but don't ramp anyhing too quickly. remember to take a week off for your hols and christmas or whatever.

Then see where you are

Hiya, I am glad of any advice at all, What you posted makes perfect sense, Looking back over recent months i have been trying to
recapture where i was winter 2022, Whereas i should have lowered my ambitions some what, Some body suggested i try something else like hiking
or cycling, But both are too time consuming and wont fit into my family circumstances, Slow and steady running when i do get back,
Everything in perspective, I have a neighbour, same age as me confined to a wheelchair, He would love to have my problem,

 

[Papa Smurf]

Brilliant advice above.
Are you coaching any runners El Guapo? (you should be ) apologies if you were asked this already.

@jimmy, the Marathon is not the be all and end all. Shift the focus away from it for a bit and enjoy the benefits that running brings without all of your eggs in one basket and the fear of injury. Race a bit more often over shorter distances when you are fit and healthy to set short terms pb targets. If you end up regularly doing half marathons in races or training then the opportunity to go longer might come on the horizon again.

 

[El Guapo]

Brilliant advice above.
Are you coaching any runners El Guapo? (you should be ) apologies if you were asked this already.

@jimmy, the Marathon is not the be all and end all. Shift the focus away from it for a bit and enjoy the benefits that running brings without all of your eggs in one basket and the fear of injury. Race a bit more often over shorter distances when you are fit and healthy to set short terms pb targets. If you end up regularly doing half marathons in races or training then the opportunity to go longer might come on the horizon again.

Nah, I'm patiently waiting on my eldest fella to age into Little Athletics so i can go full Gjert Ingebritsen on the poor bollocks

In the meantime Jimmy will have to do.

Now Jimmy into the meatgrinder with you...

 

[jimmym]

Nah, I'm patiently waiting on my eldest fella to age into Little Athletics so i can go full Gjert Ingebritsen on the poor bollocks

In the meantime Jimmy will have to do.

Now Jimmy into the meatgrinder with you...

I have to decide which of ye i want to mentor me, you or Carmona, BT charges too much,

 

[El Guapo]

I have to decide which of ye i want to mentor me, you or Carmona, BT charges too much,

no contest. the Lichenstein Canova or some asshole with a sore leg who can't run.

Carmona is the man

 

[Happyhonkaman]

El G.. any chance I could pick your brain?

My plan for the next 6 months is to get at least 3 Sprint Tri’s in (Ballybunion, Fenit and Valentia), an Olympic Tri (Can’t figure a race that suits yet), and I think I’ll have a go at the Clontarf HM again mid November 16th and call it a day at that for the year again. Some other Quest or something or other will probably find its way in there also. My goal would be to be fitter than last year and better the times I did in the tri’s and to have another lash at the sub 1:50 HM

So with that in mind my head is saying train for the Olympic tri and the sprints will look after themselves - I haven’t been in a pool since November but I’d finish one tomorrow. Once Valentia is done in Sept then I have 2 months to get ready for the HM, hopefully off a good base of fitness

I’ve just been plodding along with running and a bit of biking thrown in. Generally I’ve been doing 10km on a Tuesday, 10-12km on a Sat, and then either a run or cycle on a Sunday. Im going to start to build the pool into the training again now once a week, and will ramp all of the training up at the start of July once I have the time on my hands.

For the next 2 months of running is there any merit in the 5km park run followed by 5 more trying to push the pace on, or do I really need to start running hills and sprints if I want to get those times down? Im starting to see my times coming down a bit but notice I am far more likely to run a decent time with the gang in the park than alone. I think I need to start to stretch that Sat run to 12.5-15km also so that the 10km run in the olympic is well within range

Maybe the Tuesday run is 10km but with quicker intervals thrown in amongst it?

 

[El Guapo]

El G.. any chance I could pick your brain?

My plan for the next 6 months is to get at least 3 Sprint Tri’s in (Ballybunion, Fenit and Valentia), an Olympic Tri (Can’t figure a race that suits yet), and I think I’ll have a go at the Clontarf HM again mid November 16th and call it a day at that for the year again. Some other Quest or something or other will probably find its way in there also. My goal would be to be fitter than last year and better the times I did in the tri’s and to have another lash at the sub 1:50 HM

So with that in mind my head is saying train for the Olympic tri and the sprints will look after themselves - I haven’t been in a pool since November but I’d finish one tomorrow. Once Valentia is done in Sept then I have 2 months to get ready for the HM, hopefully off a good base of fitness

I’ve just been plodding along with running and a bit of biking thrown in. Generally I’ve been doing 10km on a Tuesday, 10-12km on a Sat, and then either a run or cycle on a Sunday. Im going to start to build the pool into the training again now once a week, and will ramp all of the training up at the start of July once I have the time on my hands.

For the next 2 months of running is there any merit in the 5km park run followed by 5 more trying to push the pace on, or do I really need to start running hills and sprints if I want to get those times down? Im starting to see my times coming down a bit but notice I am far more likely to run a decent time with the gang in the park than alone. I think I need to start to stretch that Sat run to 12.5-15km also so that the 10km run in the olympic is well within range

Maybe the Tuesday run is 10km but with quicker intervals thrown in amongst it?

i nearly deleted this answer a few times, i dont really think i should be too proscriptive but i cant think of another useful way to answer the question. but there is more than one way to skin a cat. this is far from the only answer

it depends on how you run them.

You're probably at the point where you need to be running with a bit more intent. When i was training for tri's i found that swimming or biking the next day after a hard session manageable on the body but i was younger then.

Plodding 10k easy from here won't get you the improvement you're looking for. Its never the distance that's the issue its the speed. The general fitness you'll gain from more volume overall might but you need to start some controlled quicker running.

The aim is to go comfortably hard.

Never to overdo it and burn the candle at both ends.

If the 5k PR + 5k works, grand but i reckon its a big injury risk if you do it weekly.

Presumably you run it hard and you accumulate lactic, then keep going after a bit chances are you'll break down quickly enough and your legs will be trashed for Sunday.

Are you familar with Jack Daniels (the coach not the whiskey), he proscribed paces based on assumed VO2 max from distance races. Called Vdot. They are not a holy grail but a decent starting point for most runners.

V.O2 Running Calculator

An easy-to-use training platform for athletes and coaches, including the science and formulas of legendary coach Dr. Jack Daniels.

vdoto2.com

Next week or the week after take your park run seriously.

Get a good 20 min warm up. Do a few strides beforehand, no pints the night before and properly race your Park Run this will get you a recent 5k time for current fitness.

Plug this into your calculator (by all means run another 5 but really you should be too bait to want to do any more than shuffle a bit) and you'll get a VDOT.

This will give you training paces and race projections. The one you need most is your threshold pace. i.e. the pace you can run where your body is generating latic and clearing it without it going exponential.

Your 1:51:10 ish marathon is about a VDOT of 40. this projects to a 50min ish 10k so reasonably good for you (but needs to be tested in the park run, do not use these paces here they are a guide only).

Training paces give Marathon Pace of 5:28 per km. Threshold pace of 5:07 mins per km. I think Daniels is a bit ambitious for his T pace so say 5:10 or so.

I would use these as the basis for your running and let the swim/bike be your easy session.

so your Tues 10k, can be
20min E warm up, 10 min T, 3 mins Rest x2, 20 min Cooldown. You'd be lookng to build this up to about 40mins over time split basically any way you want between 4 and 20 mins with decent recovery.

I like 8-10 4 min reps for this, or 5x8mins etc with 1min recovery for both.

Sat Session would be a touch slower and a bit longer between T and M pace maybe 5:15 or 5:20 or so. Err on the side of caution

20 min E warm up, 20 min steady, 5 mins E, 10 mins steady, 20 mins Easy. Build up to about an hour of work. over time by adding 5 mins either side of the rest. This might end up being your long run and you reover on the bike on a sunday. if its part of park run grand as long as you have pace disipline.

The idea will always be that you feel you are going too slow by rep 1 and are feeling it by the last min of the last rep but could keep going. you are looking to achieve a state not a pace so if you need to run your 20min sets 10 secs slower than your 1k reps thats okay but always be cautious. Some days you'll feel like shit and go slower. thats okay.

Some days you'll feel great, resist the urge to push it. Anyone can do it once. the aim is to get on the bike the next day and the pool the day.after and another session the next day or whatever.

Repeat your park run time trial every 8 weeks or so and update your paces.

I hope this helps and is clear and not nonsense

 

[BlackpoolTerrier]

Just catching up with the last page or two and Carmona, Guapo and smurf are all talking sense. Your marathon career is not over Jimmy, but you need to become much hardier as a runner before you can tackle the distance.

“Iron in the legs” is a term you hear wrinkly old f***ers like me bringing up on a regular basis – but it’s valid. You build the iron through the type of approach the lads are advocating – regular running, initially over short distances, focusing on short races, then lengthen the focus onto the ten-milers and HMs in mind. Not backing away from regular hardy speed sessions either.

One clear symptom with you has been evident in your description of your long runs – a long run beyond 10 miles is a major event for you, with a big buildup, emotional execution and a major sense of achievement afterwards. In truth, for a marathon runner, the long run is often the easiest of the week – it’s done a minute per mile slower than race pace and is a great chance to mooch along and chat with your fellow runners. There might be a bit of race pace or a big climb up the likes of Raffeen but otherwise it’s straightforward - you certainly wouldn’t have doubts about being able to finish it.

That’s not a criticism of you Jimmy – it’s just an illustration of what hardiness means in a runner – distance shouldn’t be a big deal. The good news is that as the injury heals you just need to follow the lads’ advice and you’ll get there – there’s no massive stretch program needed, no killer distance program. Running is a fantastic pursuit – to someone who doesn’t run, you can’t explain it – to someone who does run, you don’t have to. Don’t beat yourself up - take what you can from the training and races and enjoy the great times on the road.